I suggest you ...

Streatch goal just for the graphics

Stretch goal just for the graphics, make 3D levels and render them out as 2D images like Project Eternity is going to do.
The game really doesn't need a 360 camera movement, what it needs a detailed and gorgeous environment, and I think the only way to achieve this is by using those kind of graphics.

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  • AzmodiuzAzmodiuz commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    OMFG please use the 3-D seen and done in wasteland 2, its so amazing. I've waited 25 years to see this done properly , please, you MUST do it. BUT - the author of this idea does have a point, make it look great.

    BUT OMFG its amazing what was done in wasteland 2. So - im against this idea to use what PoE is doing. I've decided to back PoE as well, and the only thing that makes me shudder to think about it, is the fact I can not rotate the camera's.

    I'm forcing myself to get pst it. Please, graphics are SO important for Torment, its not even funny.

    DEVs - do make it 3-D. That's the way forward. Please of Please do it.

  • GizmoGizmo commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    I don't see the reason not to use 3D instead of 2D. Once there was indeed an obvious reason to use 2D... 3D was resource intensive and produced inferior visuals in exchange for superior interactivity and potential application in the games... but that's not the case with these monster desktops. Torment (or even WL2) could play well with a fixed perspective regardless of 2D or 3D assets, but it could have some advantages for being 3D that it simply would not if made 2D. At this point I you can make just about anything 3D in the same fidelity and quality as with 2D methods.

    Consider that 3D encompasses 2D, and all the texture-maps are 2D... 2D textured rectangles [2 tris] can be used in 3D as imposter sprites; while retaining the benefits of a 3D system.

  • JDJD commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    Accidently flagged it as inapproprioate, sry for that. :[

  • archavenarchaven commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    Well folks.. i guess this will be my last time chiming in this thread. You guys will get your 2D backgrounds whether it's gonna release as stretch goals or not. Why? Because 2D is just thousands times simpler than 3D. It's easier to make 2D and making it pretty as it's just like a painting.It's dead, static and you can't really view it at different angles that you wished for as it's just having only 1 angle.

    3D can easily look bad if there's no creative and talented artists putting enough effort making them. I have to agree inXile and Obsidian are just "story-tellers" at best. They are never good in technology and 3D stuff. And it's expensive in terms of producing them.

    So with 2D it's easier to make and people are pledging more money. Ain't that wonderful? It's cheaper and easier to make compared to complexity of 3D and they are getting more profit.

    Think of it.. it would be totally stupid for inXile to not go 2D ;)

  • archavenarchaven commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    Oh my Crosmando.. i know you are great fan of 2D handcraft backgrounds but your words are just contradicting yourself.

    "Secondly, it's simple math that a background that is prerendered is going to look worlds better than a background rendered in real-time."

    This is just your opinion. The pre-rendered background of Project Eternity screenshot does not look worlds better to me than today state of the art game. Since you like to shoe-horn 2D that much, why bother adding 3D objects to the static background? Ain't pre-rendered 2D look worlds better? ;)

    I don't mind it's 2D. If they can make it "Rotatable".. i don't even mind if it's 1D with super awesome millions of artists handcrafted background.

    Well don't have to get all angry with me for my preferences :P. I guess you'll get your awesome 2D backgrounds eventually. You guys are bunch of awesome backers rite? :D.

    Well time will tell once the game is close to alpha or release. We will see how awesome the background then? :)

  • archavenarchaven commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    I think alot here miss my point. Thinking if i want to play a "First Person Game" or a "Pretty" game i should go play Farcry3.. Mass Effect... etc.

    The reason why I preferred 3D background instead of 2D static ones.. as i've mentioned countless times apart from all the technical limitations.. it simply can't be "Rotatable".

    And again don't argue about beautiful graphics don't sell a game (which i agree it don't) but i like to add it actually adds more immersion to the game. If people's argument is about me nitpicky about graphics.. then this topic shouldn't exist anyway.

  • AlexAlex commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    EDIT: To point out, we are talking about the backgrounds here, not the entire game, as Crosmando said . :) (And pardon my spelling and formulations, English is not my native language)

    @archaven, I think you miss the point many here try to convey a bit. It is not about realistic graphics to move about in, its all about setting, themes, and over all immersion and impression. And to do that in a way that does not detract from the personal story and dialog heavy game.

    Yes, AAA studios makes pretty 3D games, but what AAA game these last years have had a real deep story? Or indeed, its story as a selling point?

    Not to mention one very important factor, for me at least, imagination. 2D landscapes more easily capture my imagination, and "too realistic and free" 3D game engines for me can distract me from the story . Take Guild Wars 2, it has a very nice engine, but I could never imagine playing a Torment game in it. The engine simply distracts me too much, and takes over the part my imagination does for me.

    Torment (and other good CRPGs) for me is a personal game, I want to sit and think, reflect and ponder things. Take my time in the story. Not run around in a 3D environment just because. 2D can do this fairly "easily" (easy as in easier than making a fully fletched 3D world, and easier to implement outlandish settings), or as OP said, a 3D image put down to 2D.

    As for looking "fake"? Well, yes :) but I don't want a realistic environment, I want an environment that captures the Numenera setting (whatever it turns out to be :D ). It is a role playing game, and an exotic one at that.

    I am not saying the Wasteland 2 engine cannot do this. But will it be able to convey the really outlandish sounding setting of Numenera adequately? Maybe, I do not know. It is top down, so that helps a lot. I have only seen a little clip of Wasteland 2, and it does look good, but Wasteland 2 is not Torment, and the setting is not Numenera. “The Bloom” for instance has me intrigued; can that be depicted well in the same engine used in Wasteland 2? I do not know.

    To say it like this, to me Neverwinter Nights compared to say Baldurs Gate, I judged both games by their story, setting, and how well I can immerse myself in the game, not the engine or how accurately it depicts height and whatnot. I liked both games, but the story of Baldurs Gate stuck with me longer. Often I see that too much effort goes into the engine and too little in the story. And I don’t really need a correct visual depiction either. I should point out again, I do not fear a lack of story form inXile, in fact, I think it will be superb. :)

    And please, don't come here and talk about 2D and 3D as going forwards or backwards, because the point is simply moot. Why would people make new games in 2D, like Meatboy, FTL, AI War: Fleet Command, Terraria, Binding of Isaac, LIMBO, Trine, Torchlight etc.? To capture a certain type of gameplay, setting and feeling. Torment is an RPG, and the focus is on the RP part, this can be done just as well in 2D, perhaps even better than some 3D implementations. Not saying 3D will always be bad, because it is not, it can be used to great effect certainly. Heck I play a pen and paper RPGs, and that has no game engine other than our own imaginations, and it works wonders.

    I guess my feelings are this: Torment is an RPG, not a first person shooter with some RPG elements like Skyrim, for instance. I feel that 2D can work just as well, if not even better than 3D. 3D could also work, not saying it cannot. Only reason I like the 2D implementations is because of how they convey setting and feeling, and do not distract form the story. Plus certain artwork can be very hard to replicate fully in 3D. I shall also admit it may be a bit of nostalgia as well, since I have yet to play a really good 3D CRPG, but the old RGPS did make a huge impact on me, and part of the reason was the top down view and, back then, good artwork and graphics combined with a great story.

    But any further speculation, or perhaps I should call it ranting at this point, will really be kind of pointless without anything to base it on. I just know what I used to like in old CRPGs, and I hope to like these new ones just as much! :)

  • NordomNordom commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    Please for the love of god NO.. why introduce 3D anything, it wasn't necessary for PS:T and it's not necessary for this.

    Anyway.. painted backgrounds will ALWAYS look better than 3D renderings.

    @archaven.. simply for the reason that companies can't justify a $50-100 million budget with 2d graphics.. they DON'T look better, they are just easier to sell.

  • WeenogWeenog commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    @Archaven. the gorgeous graphics you hope to see in this game, granted... do exist, games like farcry 3, mass effect, halo, gta ect, but these have budgets upto and beyond 80.000.000 dollars. name me one game with a fixed top view 3d camera that has absolutly stunning 3D graphics with the budget under 10.000.000. i don't understand how you can say 2d hand painted backgrounds are gimmicky and fake if you truely apreciated the old planescape torment for the handcrafted visual artwork it was,. the soul and artistry would be incredibly difficult to replicate in 3d with a modest budget. please let this game live up to what it was. 3d rpg's are a dime a dozen. this is a rare and precious opportunity

  • archavenarchaven commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    No i can't resist to help informing backers that 2D are not superior to 3D. If they are superior.. why are AAA games producing game titles in 2D and make their games 2D?

    2D high resolution art can be pretty but that is just static and "fake". Why bother with illustrating "realistic", "beautiful" world when it's just fake? Sure the high resolution Icewind Dale background looks gorgeous. But can you interpret from that Art? It's illustrating height and terrain but in actual is just flat like old school 2D "Street Fighter".

    They are already using Unity Engine. An open-source 3D gaming engine. It is achievable with that depth if they were to use 3D. It has depth, height and rotatable. Imagine you can "rotate" that awesome scenery of the Icewind Dale screenshots? ;). Imagine you can fully rotate and "view" your favorite Torment character "Annah" in full glory?.

    Again. I would like to stress going 2D is going backward. Not moving forward. Not only about all those technical limitations but it's also limiting modding capabilities. What i'm amazed is that backers knowledge of technology are really that "shallow" and misguided thinking 2D are superior than 3D.

    Going 2D is doing less work and is much easier. If anything perhaps they should reduce the stretch goals not increasing it.

  • theinternetftwtheinternetftw commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    It's worth mentioning that a major benefit of doing it 3d is inXile being able to make use of as much of their pipeline from Wasteland 2 as possible.

    This is incredibly important: them being able to use those tools allows as many people to focus on the 'game proper' as possible, which is a huge boon.

    Even if it'd have been easier to do 2d backgrounds for everything from the beginning (assuming no previous work had been done), it is very likely that effort-wise, sticking with what they've been doing with Wasteland 2 is going to allow the team to use as much groundwork from that title as they can. Remember, the budgets Kickstarter provides are *much* lower than the average game budget: finding a way to reuse a ton of work is huge, and that savings can be spent on making the game a fantastic experience.

  • WeenogWeenog commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    the days to pledge are slowly numbering down, and we eagerly await your decision.

    some words on what the team had discussed?

  • AlexAlex commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    @archaven, 3D can be nice, but requires more resources to get all the details and models, and based on experience on other games tend to detract from the story, setting and immersion if not done right. The focus tend to slip from the players if the environment is "too free" as well. When dealing with a what I assume to be a text heavy Torment game (a good thing!) I hope the main focus in on the setting, dialogue and story. 2D can "easily" capture weird exotics different places.

    Wasteland 2 does look nice, so I would not be disappointed by that either, though I have only seen one video of it in alpha/pre-alpha :)

    What I am exited about is how Numunera will actually look. It sounds very exotic, and maybe it is easier to make in 2D? I dunno, I just know I enjoy cRPGs that does not focus on the engine too much, but rather captures the setting and feeling well.

  • archavenarchaven commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    I think the new Torment may bound to failure in terms of visual presentation (just like Project Eternity) by uninformed backers who thought 2D hand-drawn backgrounds can be more beautiful than 3D (which they are very wrong). Not only they are marketing gimmick about being prettier but it may also imposed limitations such as AI, pathfinding issues, modding capabilities, no terrain/height depth (which could be a factor for game mechanics), object blocking and etc.

    Most probably inXille would be using this easy way out. It will be much easier for them since Obsidians and folks aren't really technology people.

    I'd be hopeful if they can produce so call "beautiful" 2D backgrounds than beats 3D :P. Honestly if by judging the hand-drawn backgrounds of "Project Eternity" something called "prettier" than 3D then i'd be really lol.

  • AlexAlex commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    I think the most important thing, is to make the appearances fairly simple to create, but still be good looking and convey the setting/feeling that is intended. 2D does this well enough in the old isometric games, and I kind of like it. The provided screenshot, looks really good.

    For example; I never really did enjoy the 3D environment from Fallout 3 kind of games as much as Fallout 1 and 2. To me it felt like some things were sacrificed just to make it 3D. Not to mention the first person look made it feel a lot more like a shooter then an CRPG.

    I don't think anything will be sacrificed in Tides of Numenera for the sake of the engine, but that old isometric view is still very nice I think. In a way, to me it seems more like a book and I can fire up my imagination a bit more. Maybe it is just nostalgia? I dunno, I have not really seen that many new CRPs, so maybe it is an irrational fear of an unknown?

    I guess the gist of it really boils down to this: do not sacrifice any aesthetics/feelings/setting just to make it 3D and be able to rotate camera. I, and I think many of the backers, are perfectly happy with a 2D view, and in some cases may prefer it. If thinks look like attached screenshot, I am very happy.

    And I guess it goes without saying, top-down, and not first person, is the best approach for cRPGs imo :)

  • GastonGaston commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    Just look at games with pre render backgrounds and fixed camera, nothing can beat that!
    the old resident evil or even resident evil zero and remake, I know they are very very different games and style but still the idea of the pre render backgrounds is the same

  • RobcatRobcat commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

    Yep, just look at those pics Gaston linked. Perfect style for Torment. Don't we want it to feel like the original in aesthetics, just with new artistic themes and direction? A picture paints a thousand words.

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